I haven't read either book – I've just been doing massive Google searches and reading forums the last few days. But it seems that the E2 Diet is a "less strict" version of Caldwell Esselstyn's diet. Is that a fair assessment?
Being less strict sounds like it should be easier to stay on. Does Caldwell Esselstyn also approve of this diet? From other posts on this site I would gather he does because he participates in joint seminars.
I'm trying to figure out what to do about my own obesity problem. Obviously the easier it is to stay on a new diet the more chances there are for success. Are both diets thought to have about the same effect, including preventing and reversing heart disease?
One more question: I assume that people can stay on this diet for life and not just 28 days, right? :)
Post edited 3:24 am – February 2, 2011 by thatcrazyvegan
From what I can remember from reading Rip's book (and many others like The China Study, Dr. Fehrman's book, Dr. Barnard's book, Dr. McDougall's etc.). Dr. E's plan is for people who are already diagnosed as being very ill with heart disease and maybe have had a heart attack already, have high BP and cholesterol. They are on meds already but still can't control their numbers etc. These people will die and die very soon without immediate and severe change in their lifestyle and because they have already damaged their heart muscle. (BTW, it has been proven that acceptable cholseterol numbers and BP numbers artificially kept that way by meds alone.. does not lower the chance of having another heart attack.)
Rip's book is for everyone else-
Folks who can see the writing on the wall because they are very obese or their parents died of a heart attack at a young age. Or like the examples in Rip's book- firefighters who eat really poor diets and who are overweight and didn't know they were on their way to a heart attack until Rip had their cholesterol measured and found it to be in the high 200's. This group of people have a high rate of turning themselves around on Rip's diet. It is not as strict because it does not have to be. In the China Study, Dr. Campbell proves that following a 97% plant based diet (for otherwise normal weight healthy people) is just as successful in preventing heart disease and cancer as a 100% plant based plan. He tells stories of cultures where people live to be very old, yet remain energetic and vital. These people eat meat a few times a year and do very well.
I choose to have a little dairy once in a great while and don't worry about it, but my cholesterol is 107 and my BP is 95 over 70. I have been on this plan since May 2009.
I hope this helps. I am sure other folks will chime in with their opinion.
Oh, and yes this plan is for life. Rip just suggests that you find out your cholesterol and BP numbers…try the plan for 28 days and then have your blood tested again. The improvement you see in just 28 days will make you want to stay on it for life….because it will allow you to have a life.. a long and vital life.
I probably fall into the category of Rip's book. I'm not on heart medication and have never had a heart attack. My doctor did say though that my triglycerides were high. Last year my cholesterol, blood sugar and blood pressure were high. But instead of medication I went on a low calorie diet and lost 22 lb. After about 5 months my A1C, cholesterol and blood pressure were all normal.
Unfortunately, since last summer I've gained back all I've lost and more, so I am guessing my blood values have gotten worse again. My blood pressure though isn't bad really – about 120/70. My doctor is always amazed at that since I'm 100+ lb overweight.
I know it's possible for me to lose 100+ lb just by calorie counting. I've done it multiple times over the years. But after two years or so I always fall off the wagon and gain it all back. I'm having trouble getting back into the calorie-counting routine again, so have been looking around for something else.
I've tried low-carbing (Atkins) a few times and it plain doesn't work. There is some appetite suppression which occurs, but I still eat too many calories to lose weight. Even the Atkins site admits calories count. The whole low-carbing idea seems like a hall-of-mirrors anyway. Ultimately it still comes down to if you eat too many calories you can't lose weight.
I tried Weight Watchers "simply filling" but I simply fill myself with things that are too caloric I think. Probably from too many animal products like chicken, beef and fish.
So I've been trying to find some other system to try. And if it is a heart-healthy diet that would be great.
To be honest, my only hesitation is that I've tried vegan before (took the 30 day PETA vegan pledge) and after 3 weeks I felt like I was at death's door. I had no energy and digestively it was very unpleasant. The PETA site claims that increased bloating and gas goes away and drinking lots of water helps, but I found it miserable. The only nice thing about low-carbing is that it is "digestively quiet" and comfortable. But it doesn't work for weight loss.
So I'm worried about eating lots of legumes and vegetables and things like that which I know my body doesn't react well to. Does that part really get better after a few weeks? If so, I would be happy eating the stuff advocated in this diet forever. But if I have to cope with non-stop gas and bloating for months at a time, to be honest it wouldn't be a clear choice between that and having a heart attack instead. :)
Before I answer your question about gas, I want to point out that even thought eating meat is "digestively quiter" as you put it, meat takes a long time to rot in your intestines and causes colon cancer. (Not a pretty picture at all.) I also was on atkins for a number of years and had diverticulosis, tons of IBS symptoms and probably would have developed colon cancer if I had not stopped assulting myself with meat and fat, IMHO.
Now back to the problems of transitioning to a plant based diet: Yes, I had issues adjusting even though I have always loved vegetables and eaten them in liberal amounts. (especially the very fiberous ones like broccoli, caulliflower and cabbage). It took me a while (a month or so) to get used to the higher fiber amounts in my system. (This might be too much information..but here I go, because you asked. LOL) Before the adjustment, I suffered from slow motility..beginning in my stomach and continuing down and out. (often a side effect of heavy meat eaters) extreemly slow, extreemly, extreemly slow… so when I changed to a hight fiber diet, it took a while for my body to adjust to emptying every single day. In fact it didn't happen for a while and I got very bloated and almost quit…. but I hung in there and boy was I glad I did. My motility issues were not cured but now they are controlled by eating a proper, healthy, high fiber, low fat, whole grain, whole food diet. I know I still have the same issues because when I eat white rice, white noodles or too much fat… I am plainly miserable. That is why I am replying to you at 5 oclock in the morning after being awake all night. (I was at a party last night and well…..I am paying for it now.) You may have trouble adjusting to the higher amount of beans for example. (Remember to rinse canned beans and always throw away water from soaking dried beans, use beano or put a piece of Kombu in any dish that has a flatulant effect while it is cooking.)
So, If you had a big issue last time you tried a vegan diet.. why don't you adjust it to suit what you know about yourself. Choose foods on the plan that you know will be successful and eat those. Eat them over and over and add a new food only once every few days. If you can't eat raw veggies, eat only cooked ones at first. If you don't like whole wheat noodles, mix them half and half with white for a while and transition yourself slowly. You have a lifetime to get it right. Just don't eat meat…or cheese, eggs, or milk for a while and see how it goes.
Remember to give it a complete try though. Learn to cook Rip's recipes, or the recipes on HappyHerbivore.com, fatfreevegan.com, or any plantbased low fat website you can find. After a while, you will lose the taste for sugar and fat, and meat will not appeal to you anymore. (It is not like atkins where I craved carbs every day and when I gave in I would down a whole bag of cookies in one sitting and then root around my kitchen for MORE sugar. (God those were horrible days.) )
One more thing about energy…Your body will be making a BIG change. As you lose weight you will be releasing toxic substances from your stored fat. The more fat you have, the more stored toxic substances you have. (any medicine you took is stored there, all of the excess, tylenol for those tired and sore joints, chemicals from the hormones in the milk, chemicals from the antibiotics in the meat, etc) It will take a little while for your body to empty those stores. The good news is… the toxic stuff goes before all of the fat goes, or we would all quit after a few weeks. This side effect of this diet change will sap your energy, for a while. but when you turn the corner.. You will feel better than you have in years.
Good luck to you. Ask as many questions as you may have. This is not a huge forum but there are a few of us who are pretty active. If you need more support…. join one of the vegan/vegetarian support teams at sparkpeople.com. I am on that site as IMVEGAN.
What did you party on that kept you up all night? Here it is 7:50 pm and I'm just sitting here going in circles in my mind trying to figure out what to do next on my diet.
On Atkins I don't crave carbs every day. But it gets old really quickly. I mean, despite the claims to the contrary, there really isn't too much variety available if you limit yourself to 20 carbs per day. Even 1 teaspoon of garlic powder has 1.7 net carbs. But when you do fall off, I agree with you. It's a mad rush to consume sugars. I've been the whole bag of cookies route before myself. Anyway, that whole diet plain doesn't work. It just feels comfortable digestively is all.
I'm still worried about how to approach the digestive issues. I have multiple bottles of beano here, but I've never found them effective. There are some vegetables, fruits and grains I know don't cause problems. Citrus fruits and, for some reason, bananas seem ok. I know a lot of people have problems with banans, but I don't. Rice is renowned for not causing gas or bloating. I usually have tomatoes and cucumbers every day, even if low-carbing, and they seem ok too. Mushrooms and eggplant also don't seem to cause problems. Tofu also is ok.
I've never really done a lot of testing, but I suspect that wheat products and legumes and maybe oats (though I have not tried oats for a few years) are the main problems. Broccoli and corn are also pretty bad. In other words, all the most delicious carbs! And that is the essence of the problem for me. When you cut out chicken, fish, pork, beef, eggs and dairy, what are your "main course" possibilities if you leave out wheat (bread, pasta, pizza) and legumes? Those are like the mainstays of a vegan diet, aren't they?
Unfortunately I haven't ever seen rice pasta here. And the rice bread they sell is white rice and also contains wheat.
I doubt if a non-grain, non-legume vegan diet is sustainable, is it?
Of course if my body really did get used to it that would be great. I never saw a sign of it getting better after 3 weeks on a vegan diet though. But maybe you're right and I just need more controls and not try everything at once.
Sorry you're up all night, though glad somebody is out there. :)
By the way, does the E2 plan require whole grains (brown rice, whole wheat bread, whole wheat pasta) or are white rice, white bread (blah) and regular duram pasta also ok?
My local supermarket doesn't seem to carry any whole grain bread or pasta. It does carry brown rice though.
By the way, does the E2 plan require whole grains (brown rice, whole wheat bread, whole wheat pasta) or are white rice, white bread (blah) and regular duram pasta also ok?
My local supermarket doesn't seem to carry any whole grain bread or pasta. It does carry brown rice though.
By the way, does the E2 plan require whole grains (brown rice, whole wheat bread, whole wheat pasta) or are white rice, white bread (blah) and regular duram pasta also ok?
My local supermarket doesn't seem to carry any whole grain bread or pasta. It does carry brown rice though.
Thanks,
doug
my digestion took about 4-6 weeks as well to settle down. Now I go every day, smooth sailin… seriously I have lost 44 lbs, and feel so alert in the morning I am thinking of eliminating my one morning cup of coffee!
Jackie, that's great. 44 lbs! I need to lose much more than that but 44 lbs would certainly be a fantastic help!
I did read the book now. And did some shopping (mentioned in another topic thread). I'm concerned about the lack of whole grain stuff available here.
I don't have alertness problems in the morning, and never drink coffee anyway. But I have been finding myself crashing around 4 pm and literally falling asleep at my desk for an hour or two. Then I revive for the rest of the day and evening. I'd like to get rid of that if possible. It's good I work at home. :)
Doug, I think you have to do the best you can to remain as close to the diet as possible. If you have to eat a non whole grain food every once in a while, so be it.
You do need to work legumes into your diet though. I mentioned using kombu while you cooked them to help with the gas. I am sure you can find it there. Just cut off a 3 inch long piece of it and add it to your beans or offending veggies as they cook.
Doug, I think you have to do the best you can to remain as close to the diet as possible. If you have to eat a non whole grain food every once in a while, so be it.
You do need to work legumes into your diet though. I mentioned using kombu while you cooked them to help with the gas. I am sure you can find it there. Just cut off a 3 inch long piece of it and add it to your beans or offending veggies as they cook.
Good luck to you.
Yes, konbu is available here. In fact "konbu" is the Japanese word for a kind of kelp. It's very often added to oden dishes here. I actually quite like konbu.
I had digestive issues also but I started taking probiotics (I'm taking Jarro-Dophilus EPS Vegetarian capsules – 1 capsule 3 or 4 times a day) and taking a Beano tablet just before every meal and this has helped tremendously!!! I would highly recommend trying this diet and maybe if you think of it as a lifestyle / healthstyle change rather than weight loss it will help get your head into it! Good luck – we are all rooting for you!
I have both books, and have notice one real difference. That would be the existence of nuts in Dr. E's diet. I have been to both the 28 day challenge and the Prevent Heart disease seminars within one week of the other. No oil in either. That is the hardest part for me starting.
Don't worry. All cravings, etc, will disappear. I have lost 23 pounds.
I am still very very very interested, but have been unable to get started yet. To me the hold-ups are:
Committing.
Nagging thoughts about inconsistencies, like why is tofu ok when there is that 25% calories-from-fat per food item rule? And unclear advice about sugar.
The complete lack of the availability of whole grain bread or pasta where I live, which would take a lot of the fun out of it.
Not really being quite clear about the use of oil. Seems allowed sometimes like in sprays or whatever. Is this really an extremely low oil rather than a no oil diet then?
Not really wanting to get into legumes, regardless of bean-o, which I have found in the past to be pretty ineffective. So without those and without whole grain bread or pasta, it seems like the variety might be a bit lacking.
Yet the diet does sound extremely healthy and enticing. Still thinking about it!
I understand the committment thing. I started a very similar diet, although with the Engine 2, you can eat more than I could! I had to commit to see if it would help one of my medical conditions. You have to set your mind to it. Just do it, or as Rip said to me "jump in!".
I am having a difficult time with the no oil in the bread too. I went to the grocery store, and for the minimal amount of breads I do eat, this one had less than 2% oil per serving.
I haven't tried tofu, so I don't quite understand. The sugar – RAW turbinado sugar. Again, it is not processed, therefore a bit healthier.
Oil is a no-no. All around. The only reason they allow oil when cooking is Pam. Look on the back of Pam, or any spray oil. The amount of fat per serving is zero, although there are 550 servings per can. REALLY? So, no oil is best.
Whole grain pasta you can't find? Look in any large grocery store. If you don't have one around, ask if the store could order it for you. There is also brown rice pasta. Does your grocery store have a gluten-free section? You may find something there. Don't give up. There are ways. I am a mother of 2 young children, and I can barely afford this diet. I am doing my best, too. Hang in there. That is what these forums are for!!!!!
The tofu issue is that the book on the one hand seems adamant about not eating any food items which contain more than 25% calories from fat. Then it goes on in 73 different locations recommending tofu for this and for that. Yet the book itself admits that tofu has more that 40% calories from fat. It's a contradiction that just sort of nags at me.
About sugars, he also allows 70% dark chocolate. That contains sugar. Same with sorbet. In one place he is against sugar, molasses, honey, alcohol, white bread, white pasta, white rice and other things because they are simple carbohyrades. Maple syrup is presumably ok because it's not refined? I wish all this was a bit more clear. I'm not really a sugar-addict so much, but what exactly are the rules for cereals? I can't find ANY with zero added sugar.
I have three large supermarkets in my neighborhood (well, large by Japanese standards anyway) and none of them carry whole grain bread or whole grain pasta or even whole wheat flour. And it doesn't have a gluten-free section. I can get brown rice there though. I found one private bakery that claimed they had whole wheat bread but when I went over there it turned out to be just 15% whole wheat.
So if I do dive it, it will have to be without whole grain bread or pasta which means, I guess, no bread or pasta.
I'm not saying it's impossible. But it would sure be easier to stay on if those were available!
Doug, if you look at the recipes with tofu I think you will find that tofu is just one of the ingredients. When the tofu is added to the rest of the ingredients it helps mitigate some of the fat. It may raise the overall fat in the dish but it will still be much less than the 40% of the original tofu.
Doug, if you look at the recipes with tofu I think you will find that tofu is just one of the ingredients. When the tofu is added to the rest of the ingredients it helps mitigate some of the fat. It may raise the overall fat in the dish but it will still be much less than the 40% of the original tofu.
Sounds logical, except for that's not how it's used in the book.
Examples:
"Or try meat substitutes. Look into tofu (hard, medium and soft), tempeh (a tasty fermented tofu)…"
Under bad choices / good choices:
"Bad: Meat. Good: Grilled marinated tofu, seitan, or tempeh."
"Great sources of calcium include green leafy vegetables, nuts, oranges, kidney beans, lima beans, whole grains, Swiss chard, lentils, raisins, broccoli, kale, celery, tofu, and romaine lettuce."
"Tofu, made from soybeans, is a hearty and very malleable food. Think of it as a blank slate, and excellent substitute for fish, chicken, cheese, cream, eggs, and mayonnaise."
It just goes on and on, with not the slightest suggestion of treating tofu any differently from any of the vegetables or legumes.
Here's a recipe for "egg salad" using tofu instead of eggs:
1/2 lb extra-firm tofu, drained and crumbled
Juice of 1/2 lemon
1 t dried mustard
1 1/2 t white vinegar
1/4 t turmeric
1/4 t paprika
1/4 t sea salt
cracked pepper to taste
Process all ingredients until slightly chunky, about 15 seconds.
That recipe is almost entirely tofu and clearly has lots more than 25% calories from fat.
I'm not trying to be disagreeable here. I just want to iron out the nagging contradictions. Especially since it is likely that tofu will end up being the staple of my diet if I go this way, considering the lack of other alternatives.
By the way, I think tofu is a great diet food. It's very low calorie. The 250 gram containers of firm tofu I get at my local supermarket have only 67 calories per 100 gm, so that's only 168 calories for the whole package.
If it is the main part of the meal, surrounded by other vegetables, it's a much lower calorie meal than you can make from chicken or meat, and even lower than pasta or grains.
So common sense tells me that's a pretty good diet food.
On the other hand, the package also tells me that there are 4.3 grams of fat per 100 grams, so 39% of the calories are from fat.
In this case, logic tells me maybe it's the 25% rule itself that may be wrong. Because what is wrong about tofu except that it has more than 25% calories from fat?
Doug, the point that Rip makes about less than 25% is for a whole meal, not just one component of a meal. If you have a serving of tofu served along with a salad, some veggies, and some legumes, the total percentage of fat is less than 25% for the whole meal. For things that you eat by themselves, ex. whole wheat pretzels the total % should be as low as possible.
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