I have the utmost respect for Rip and Dr. Esselstyn. Dr. E is one of the few doctors in this world with his heart in the right place. I believe one can be sincere and also be sincerely wrong. As far as Rip, firefighters are the true definition of hero and some of his recipes are truly some of the most delicious things I've ever had.
I also consider myself plant strong in that while I do eat animal protein (especially fish) from time to time my diet is still primarily veggies, whole grains, beans, lentils, fruit, you get the picture. In otherwords animal protein is NEVER the star of the meal when I have it. Somedays, even weeks, I go without having a single animal product. I guess if you want to label me you could say I'm a flexitarian.
How can they say that animal protein is the devil when the healthiest people in the world, the okinawans eat meat especially fish? Yes, their diets are primarily plant strong but that doesn't change the fact that they do eat meat. These people have the lowest rates of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, strokes, and alzheimers. They also have the highest number of active and well functioning centenarians in the world.
Am I saying an animal free life is unhealthy? Absolutely 10000000% no. But it's clear that a life in which animal protein is consumed isn't unhealthy either. You can't say that when you have these people on this tiny island proving otherwise
Isn't it fair to say that animal is NOT the enemy but rather it's the amount we eat that is?
If you haven't read The China Study, you need to do so. It will answer many questions you may have about animal products and moderation of same.
That's lovely, and yes I have read it.
Now, back to my point. Dr esselstyn mentions not once in forks over knives that these people eat fish. Fish, last time I checked was an animal. They also revere pork over there.
I don't remember what all is said or not said in FOK, I don't even remember if Okinawans are mentioned so I can't address the statement that they are the healthiest people in the world and/or who stated this.
I will address that in the China Study it is proven to my satisfaction that animal products have nothing but ill effects on humans and it is proven objectively and scientifically.
I don't remember what all is said or not said in FOK, I don't even remember if Okinawans are mentioned so I can't address the statement that they are the healthiest people in the world and/or who stated this.
I will address that in the China Study it is proven to my satisfaction that animal products have nothing but ill effects on humans and it is proven objectively and scientifically.
These people eat fish. Pork is basically worshiped. And they eat loads of white, proving right there that not everything white is bad for you. This people have the highest number of centenarians, lowest rates of cancer, diabetes, heart disease, you name it.
If one is avoiding animals because of moral/ethical beliefs. That's cool and something I 100% support. But when someone says you must avoid animal protein or basically you are digging your own grave if you don't, that I have a problem with. Especially when the evidence is RIGHT there from the okinawans to the mediteraneans that animal protein is NOT deadly.
Even using the Chinese as proof we should avoid animal proteins isn't right considering the chinese do eat animal based proteins.
The problem with the standard american diet isn't the animal proteins cause if it was the okinawans and mediteraneans wouldn't be proving us wrong on a daily basis. The problem is with the amounts we eat and the kinds we eat. We rely to heavily on the wrong animal proteins full of artery clogging saturated fats. We think our serving sizes need to be 120z portions. We don't eat nearly enough fruits and vegetables. We concerntrate on the wrong types of carbs.
If we simply ate more fruits and veggies, more whole grains, and made animal protein the compliment to the meal like these people do we wouldn't have the problems we do.
Post edited 12:04 am – November 15, 2011 by dissolution
Did you even read the information in the links that you posted? Quotes from your links;
Studies show that the genetics of the Okinawans help them in preventing inflammatoryand autoimmune diseases.
They have low levels of an amino acid that damages artery walls called “homocysteine.” Low levels are found in people whose diets are high in folate, for example from green leafy vegetables.
Unfortunately after WWII Americans introduced bad foods like pork and now disease rates are increasing.
I saw very little in way of references to fish and nothing other than the above quote talking about pork.
Post edited 10:32 am – November 15, 2011 by Joe in O
Justin/los_diablo
I don’t pretend to know everything that Rip and Dr. Esselstyn know about nutrition, but I agree with them that our goal is to remove all animal-based foods from our diet.
Let’s start with what Dr. Campbell says in The China Study (emphasis is mine.)
“The findings from the China Study indicate that the lower the percentage of animal-based foods that are consumed, the greater the health benefits-even when the percentage declines from 10% to 0% of calories. So it’s not unreasonable to assume that the optimum percentage of animal-based products is zero, at least for anyone with a predisposition for degenerative disease. But this has not been absolutely proven. Certainly it is true that most of the health benefits are realized at a very low, but non-zero levels of animal-based foods. My advice is to try to eliminate all animal-based products from your diet, but not obsess over it.”
Further, he states: “While I recommend that you not worry about small quantities of animal products in your food, I am not suggesting that you deliberately plan to incorporate small portions of meat into your daily diet.”
The above statements would be true if we were talking about cigarettes and smoking instead of animal-based foods and eating.
So here are some of the reasons why I agree with them:
Animal protein at a significant percentage of calories (such as the Standard American Diet) is shown to cause significant health problems. With the exception of vitamin B12, all other nutrients are available from plant sources (often more abundantly) so why risk the potential long-term damage from even low quantities of animal protein?
Most animal proteins are delivered with generous portions of fat, often saturated fat
You lose the taste for foods if you abstain from them for a period of time (typically 6-12 weeks.) This ends the cravings for the animal products you are giving up.
People tend to think they eat more of the good stuff and less of the bad stuff than they really do. Get rid of it all since, as I said above, you can get the good stuff from plants and why take the added risk of the animal protein?
Dr. Esselstyn showed in his long-term study that it is both doable and it works.
Once you get rid of the animal products, you rediscover a whole world of really great food.
Dr. Campbell goes on to say “If your friend had been a smoker all of his or her life and looked for advice, would you tell them to cut down to only two cigarettes a day, or would you tell them to quit smoking all together?”
The Okinawans do eat meat (esp pork and eggs) at a minimum at family feasts and holidays, etc. The important point to note is that "feasts and holidays" occurs about every 2-3 weeks on average due to the large extended family, i.e. someone is always having a birthday, a baby shower, etc. So perhaps the Okinawans can be considered to eat veggies primarily, and then 1 "cheater" day every couple weeks of veggies + meat. They also use coconut milk regularly in recipes.
See some of the recipes (although this is supposedly a poor representative subset):
The books above cover more than diet. Cultural outlook (positive, happy, etc) is cited as reason for longevity, as well as Tai Chi. Another significant (supposedly) aspect of their diet is "never eat until full", i.e. only eat about 80% of what might be considered normal (calorie restriction). That would place them within the range of low fat vegan + 1 cheater day.
I've asked several of the world's most prominant microbiologists about how these people can survive so long. So far, they all insist that it is genetic (go figure), and/or the low calorie (near starvation) diet during their upbringing (post-WWII) causing signficant genetic change through environmental influence. Yet to quote the study:
"Does this mean that Okinawan longevity is all genetic? Not at all. We
believe the Okinawans have both genetic and non-genetic longevity
advantages — the best combination. In fact, we have written extensively
that the Okinawan traditional way of life — the dietary habits, the
physical activity, the psychological and social aspects, all play an
important role in Okinawan longevity."
Another aspect of their diet is the specific vegetables & dishes they eat regularly:
- Purple sweet potato. Several published articles on the significant advantages of this veggie compared to all others.
- Goya (bitter melon) stir-fry (usually including sliced pork, used sparingly), using a specific type of bitter melon, which has been found to be dramatically high in anti-oxidents. Bitter melon, though, has quite the unique taste so… well.. today's kids don't like it.
- Several other veggies grown on the island which are very powerful anti-oxidants (better than typical brocolli & spinach), especially when combined together in their typical every-day stir fry dishes.
- Lots of tropical fruits (also high in anti-oxidants and most not available in the U.S.)
Additionally there are a couple ongoing diet studies on the island, so unfortunately it may require patience to find out more of this story.
All of the above is based on reading/watching several of the books, articles, and videos on the Okinawans and the researchers involved; corrections welcomed.
Further references:
- Life at the extreme limit: phenotypic characteristics of supercentenarians in Okinawa.
I enjoy a plant based food diet, but every once in a whiile I do enjoy meat (mostly fish, some chicken and steak). We're all gonna die one day no matter how healthy a person eats, so what's wrong having meat every now and then?
The Okinawans do eat meat (esp pork and eggs) at a minimum at family feasts and holidays, etc. The important point to note is that "feasts and holidays" occurs about every 2-3 weeks on average due to the large extended family, i.e. someone is always having a birthday, a baby shower, etc. So perhaps the Okinawans can be considered to eat veggies primarily, and then 1 "cheater" day every couple weeks of veggies + meat. They also use coconut milk regularly in recipes.
See some of the recipes (although this is supposedly a poor representative subset):
The books above cover more than diet. Cultural outlook (positive, happy, etc) is cited as reason for longevity, as well as Tai Chi. Another significant (supposedly) aspect of their diet is "never eat until full", i.e. only eat about 80% of what might be considered normal (calorie restriction). That would place them within the range of low fat vegan + 1 cheater day.
I've asked several of the world's most prominant microbiologists about how these people can survive so long. So far, they all insist that it is genetic (go figure), and/or the low calorie (near starvation) diet during their upbringing (post-WWII) causing signficant genetic change through environmental influence. Yet to quote the study:
"Does this mean that Okinawan longevity is all genetic? Not at all. We
believe the Okinawans have both genetic and non-genetic longevity
advantages — the best combination. In fact, we have written extensively
that the Okinawan traditional way of life — the dietary habits, the
physical activity, the psychological and social aspects, all play an
important role in Okinawan longevity."
Another aspect of their diet is the specific vegetables & dishes they eat regularly:
- Purple sweet potato. Several published articles on the significant advantages of this veggie compared to all others.
- Goya (bitter melon) stir-fry (usually including sliced pork, used sparingly), using a specific type of bitter melon, which has been found to be dramatically high in anti-oxidents. Bitter melon, though, has quite the unique taste so… well.. today's kids don't like it.
- Several other veggies grown on the island which are very powerful anti-oxidants (better than typical brocolli & spinach), especially when combined together in their typical every-day stir fry dishes.
- Lots of tropical fruits (also high in anti-oxidants and most not available in the U.S.)
Additionally there are a couple ongoing diet studies on the island, so unfortunately it may require patience to find out more of this story.
All of the above is based on reading/watching several of the books, articles, and videos on the Okinawans and the researchers involved; corrections welcomed.
Further references:
- Life at the extreme limit: phenotypic characteristics of supercentenarians in Okinawa.
They actually eat fish pretty regularly. Again I have NO problem with someone avoiding meat because they love animals. That is a very noble thing. I just have a problem when someone claims that eating animal protein is the path to a short life when the healthiest peoples in the world are continually disproving this.
I enjoy a plant based food diet, but every once in a whiile I do enjoy meat (mostly fish, some chicken and steak). We're all gonna die one day no matter how healthy a person eats, so what's wrong having meat every now and then?
Sloan
Well, nothing. Let me repeat, meat has never been the problem here in the states. It's all been about how we've treated it here in the states. Unlike other places we make meat the main focus when it should really be the compliment to our meal.
Los, You haven't even come close to proving meat is healthy. The only thing you shown is that Okinawans are healthy in spite of eating meat. (and at much lower levels that you seem to believe for some reason)
I think the appropriate analogy here is, If you ate a healthy diet and exercised regularly, could you smoke 1 cigarette a day and remain healthy? Yes, IF you could only smoke ONE a day. You you be healthy BECAUSE you smoked cigarettes? Of course not, you would be healthy in spite of the cigarettes.
Seriously what does meat have that we need?
Saturated fat? How much saturated fat are we supposed to have per day? I've never heard ANY agency give a dietary requirement for saturated fat.
Cholesterol? Once again, it's not required.
Protein? All easily replaceable eating a vegan diet with just a little variety.
Iron? Eat your beans!
Omega-3? Easily obtainable on a plant based diet. Where do you think your fish gets it's Omega-3s? Eating plants!
B-12? Yes required, and we all know that vegan's can run low on this vitamin because our food supply is too clean. But what most of us don't know, is that dairy cows have to be given B-12 injections, because their food supply is becoming too clean also.
So can a person eat a small amount of meat and remain healthy in spite of that? Most likely. Would you recommend that a non smoker, or an ex-smoker smoke just ONE cigarette a day? Of course not. Are there people out there that do that? Possibly?
It definitely doesn't have one of the most important things – fiber!
Doesn't matter if they eat meat (which is fish, chicken, any animal flesh) once a week, twice a week, or everyday. The fact is that they and the mediteraneans do eat meat and yet don't have health problems. So you cannot say that meat in unhealthy when these people are proving otherwise. Again I don't care of someone is the V word (a term Rip is affraid to use for whatever reason) because they love animals or just dont like me, but I do have a problem with it when they are one because meat is bad for you. If it was then why do the healthiest people in the world consume meat?
Los, You haven't even come close to proving meat is healthy. The only thing you shown is that Okinawans are healthy in spite of eating meat. (and at much lower levels that you seem to believe for some reason)
But they do eat meat and have the longest life spans and lowest rates of things lie cancer and heart disease. They are but one example along with the mediteraneans
I think the appropriate analogy here is, If you ate a healthy diet and exercised regularly, could you smoke 1 cigarette a day and remain healthy? Yes, IF you could only smoke ONE a day. You you be healthy BECAUSE you smoked cigarettes? Of course not, you would be healthy in spite of the cigarettes.
You can't compare cigarates to a piece of say salmon for exmple.
Seriously what does meat have that we need?
Nothing. If you don't want to eat meat then don't. Just don't say it's a path to an early death when the proof says otherwise.
Saturated fat? How much saturated fat are we supposed to have per day? I've never heard ANY agency give a dietary requirement for saturated fat.
15-20 max I believe if one so chooses.
Cholesterol? Once again, it's not required.
Protein? All easily replaceable eating a vegan diet with just a little variety.
Iron? Eat your beans!
Omega-3? Easily obtainable on a plant based diet. Where do you think your fish gets it's Omega-3s? Eating plants!
B-12? Yes required, and we all know that vegan's can run low on this vitamin because our food supply is too clean. But what most of us don't know, is that dairy cows have to be given B-12 injections, because their food supply is becoming too clean also.
I don't drink milk. But anyhow don't forget nutritional yeast flakes.
So can a person eat a small amount of meat and remain healthy in spite of that? Most likely. Would you recommend that a non smoker, or an ex-smoker smoke just ONE cigarette a day? Of course not. Are there people out there that do that? Possibly?
Again you can't compare meat to a cigarete. And not most likely, they do.
Post edited 10:59 am – November 22, 2011 by Joe in O
Justin/los_diablo,
How can we help you? This is a forum to help people in their efforts to eat a plant-based whole food diet (be it plant-strong or plant-perfect.) You stated in your recent response that you had a problem with people saying that meat was bad for you. I don't think we can help you with that since your level of acceptable proof is greatly different than that of Drs. Campbell and Esselstyn and apparently many of the people who responded to your post. You are cherry-picking one piece of data and assuming that shows meat eating is good for you while ignoring all the other data (you read The China Study, right?) Heck, George Burns lived to be 100 eating the Standard American Diet and smoking cigars.
I can't speak for Rip on your statement that he fears using the word "vegan" (I can see the headline now: "Fireman enters burning building but turns back at the sight of the word vegan.") I don't use the term to describe how I eat for a few reasons:
1) The term vegan applies to all use of animal products, not just what you eat. We don't proclaim that wearing leather has any negative health consequences, at least not for the wearer.
2) A vegan diet is not necessarily whole-food and is not necessarily healthy. A cupcake made with white flour, canola oil and agave nectar may not have harmed any animals to make, but it will certainly harm the animal that eats it.
3) For me, it's easier to communicate how I eat by saying plant-based (I eat plants) and whole-food (I include the whole plant-based food without refining parts away.) The focus is on what you eat not what you exclude.
Joe, I truly appreciate your post. I have been reading this thread and haven't been sure what would be best to say. I agree with you totally, we are hear to support each other on this journey – and that means anyone and everyone who wants that support. So yes, how can we help?
I don't care of someone is the V word because they love animals
Really that makes no sense at all either. That's about as smart as eating kosher salt because some superstitious belief says to, and note that many cultures have their own superstitions with no evidence-based results.
I'd say the viagra-effect that men experience on no-fat-vegan diet is pretty impressive result for just changing eating habits. Something ridiculously healthy is going on by participating in this diet. The Okinanwan studies do mention healthy 'rigor' for the supercentarians, though the amazing quick-rising-Esselstyn-effect isn't noted.
Regarding the other comment "meat has never been the problem here in the states", not sure about that. Look at Alzheimer rates for the pre-WWI-generation (before factory farming, and when many Americans raised their own animals). Pretty poor results for what's called "home style" American eating. Cause of this still unknown although the same health benefits claimed by no-fat-vegan may also apply.
It would be great to get more opinionated response from the Dr's on this supercentarian vs. meat-eating topic.
How can we help you? This is a forum to help people in their efforts to eat a plant-based whole food diet (be it plant-strong or plant-perfect.) You stated in your recent response that you had a problem with people saying that meat was bad for you.
*Well yeah, when there are people in this world living for a very very very long time eating meat. Yes, it is mostly fish and no where near the portions we eat in the states, but last I checked fish was still meat
I don't think we can help you with that since your level of acceptable proof is greatly different than that of Drs. Campbell and Esselstyn.
*I just think it's weird/bias that they completely ignore the fact that these people do eat animal proteins and instead act like they follow a 100% plant based diet.
and apparently many of the people who responded to your post. You are cherry-picking one piece of data and assuming that shows meat eating is good for you while ignoring all the other data (you read The China Study, right?) Heck, George Burns lived to be 100 eating the Standard American Diet and smoking cigars.
*You can't compare eating meat to smoking cigars. Come on now. No I am saying that you can't say eating animal protein is deadly when the very same people you researched plus others (mediteraneans, okinawans) do eat animal proteins and live very long and healthy lives
I can't speak for Rip on your statement that he fears using the word "vegan" (I can see the headline now: "Fireman enters burning building but turns back at the sight of the word vegan.") I don't use the term to describe how I eat for a few reasons:
1) The term vegan applies to all use of animal products, not just what you eat. We don't proclaim that wearing leather has any negative health consequences, at least not for the wearer.
2) A vegan diet is not necessarily whole-food and is not necessarily healthy. A cupcake made with white flour, canola oil and agave nectar may not have harmed any animals to make, but it will certainly harm the animal that eats it.
3) For me, it's easier to communicate how I eat by saying plant-based (I eat plants) and whole-food (I include the whole plant-based food without refining parts away.) The focus is on what you eat not what you exclude.
I don't care of someone is the V word because they love animals
Really that makes no sense at all either. That's about as smart as eating kosher salt because some superstitious belief says to, and note that many cultures have their own superstitions with no evidence-based results.
I'd say the viagra-effect that men experience on no-fat-vegan diet is pretty impressive result for just changing eating habits. Something ridiculously healthy is going on by participating in this diet. The Okinanwan studies do mention healthy 'rigor' for the supercentarians, though the amazing quick-rising-Esselstyn-effect isn't noted.
Regarding the other comment "meat has never been the problem here in the states", not sure about that. Look at Alzheimer rates for the pre-WWI-generation (before factory farming, and when many Americans raised their own animals). Pretty poor results for what's called "home style" American eating. Cause of this still unknown although the same health benefits claimed by no-fat-vegan may also apply.
*Use the whole statement. I said that meat has never been the problem, it's the amounts we eat. Meaning here in the states our portions are about 8 plus oz's for a piece of steak, fish, whatever and maybe a 1/4 cup for veggies. Now take the island of okinawa where fish is eaten but the portions are kept small while the veggie portions are much much much bigger. This is what we should do. Oh and their rates of alzheimers are virtually no existent.
It would be great to get more opinionated response from the Dr's on this supercentarian vs. meat-eating topic.
Joe in O said:
Justin/los_diablo,
How can we help you? This is a forum to help people in their efforts to eat a plant-based whole food diet (be it plant-strong or plant-perfect.) You stated in your recent response that you had a problem with people saying that meat was bad for you.
*Well yeah, when there are people in this world living for a very very very long time eating meat. Yes, it is mostly fish and no where near the portions we eat in the states, but last I checked fish was still meat
I don't think we can help you with that since your level of acceptable proof is greatly different than that of Drs. Campbell and Esselstyn.
*I just think it's weird/bias that they completely ignore the fact that these people do eat animal proteins and instead act like they follow a 100% plant based diet.
and apparently many of the people who responded to your post. You are cherry-picking one piece of data and assuming that shows meat eating is good for you while ignoring all the other data (you read The China Study, right?) Heck, George Burns lived to be 100 eating the Standard American Diet and smoking cigars.
*You can't compare eating meat to smoking cigars. Come on now. No I am saying that you can't say eating animal protein is deadly when the very same people you researched plus others (mediteraneans, okinawans) do eat animal proteins and live very long and healthy lives
I can't speak for Rip on your statement that he fears using the word "vegan" (I can see the headline now: "Fireman enters burning building but turns back at the sight of the word vegan.") I don't use the term to describe how I eat for a few reasons:
1) The term vegan applies to all use of animal products, not just what you eat. We don't proclaim that wearing leather has any negative health consequences, at least not for the wearer.
2) A vegan diet is not necessarily whole-food and is not necessarily healthy. A cupcake made with white flour, canola oil and agave nectar may not have harmed any animals to make, but it will certainly harm the animal that eats it.
3) For me, it's easier to communicate how I eat by saying plant-based (I eat plants) and whole-food (I include the whole plant-based food without refining parts away.) The focus is on what you eat not what you exclude.
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